Let’s be honest: this episode didn’t go in the direction we had expected or planned.
But that’s to your benefit: you’re getting a raw, insider’s look into the thought processes of RevOps Therapist and CEO of Greaser Consulting, Jordan Greaser, and Mark Turner, VP of Revenue Operations at Built In, when it comes to how to build your tech stack.
From Series A to Series B, and we didn’t make it much further past that, where do you start spending your money on tech? Is a CRM really the best first choice?
Hi, this is Jordan, the owner and CEO of Greaser Consulting. We have with us today Mark Turner from Built In; he’s leading their sales operation motion. And the conversation today is about what’s the right time for specific tools within the tool stack. The interesting thing about this conversation is about 50% of the way through it, things take a turn. So the first 10 minutes that you’re listening, you’re going to hear, “hey, Series A, Series B, here’s the must-have tools from the beginning.” But by the middle of the conversation, we go down this rabbit trail of what would happen in a world without CRM, if you have the rise of the integrators out there. And you do this model, instead of CRM, you get an integrator, you get a data lake, and perhaps a BI tool and you run from there. You’ll hear Mark, this is the first time he’s really thought about that. And so you sort of hear a conversation where someone gets opened up to a completely different paradigm. So it was a lot of fun talking with him about this. And I have to tell you, after the record button was turned off, we stayed for another 45 minutes and just, you know, talked about the future, innovation, what all is going on. So we’ll have to have him back to give him some more room to give his thoughts. I thought today’s conversation was, was, at least for me, pretty interesting. So go ahead, dive in, open your ears up, lean into this thing, and enjoy today’s session.
Say you want some clarity in sales and marketing and SEP? Well, we have just the remedy: our podcast, RevOps Therapy. Yeah.
Hi, everyone. This is Jordan, the owner of Greaser Consulting, and we have with us today Mr. Mark himself. Mark, why don’t you go ahead and introduce yourself?
Hey, thanks, Jordan. Yeah, so my name is Mark Turner. I’m currently the VP of Revenue Operations at Built In.
So today, I know we’re talking about the right tools at the right time. Notice how I said tools. Mark and I were just laughing before this: I have a problem. Part of the country that I’m in “tools” sounds like, like a “road toll”. So if you guys hear me today saying, “hey, what tools did you get?” We’re not talking about paying someone on the highway. So anyway, jokes aside, jumping in this today thinking about getting the right things at the right time. This is an interesting question. Because I hear folks all the time say “no, this is a software you need; you have to buy this. No you, you’ve got to go with, with, you know, this giant in the space,” and other folks are saying “no, I need HubSpot right now;” others are saying, “no, you need Salesforce; you need…” So when we get into this concept, let’s just have fun for a second. We’re talking about RevOps in general. Are there any tools in your mind that it doesn’t matter what size company you’re in? Whether you’re small, you’re starting? Or hey, listen, you’re a public company being traded everywhere? Like, what are the systems that are non-negotiable?
Yeah, I think a CRM is non-negotiable because the, the earliest you can start collecting data and start understanding what good looks like, the, the faster you can start replicating that and kind of teaching and training to that, that method. And I hate to say it, but Salesforce, right, Salesforce is the gold standard. I’ve been at a few places that have transitioned from other CRMs into Salesforce. And I think it’s just the, the ability to kind of go back and look at that data and have it all there is one of the biggest benefits of, kind of, starting off with Salesforce from the beginning.
So in your mind, there is only one thing?
You mean like a Salesforce versus a HubSpot versus a…?
No, I’m saying we’re going to talk about the essential tools to get started. The only thing that’s essential is CRM; there’s nothing else?
I wouldn’t say that, but I think CRM is your foundation of your pyramid. So if, if, if you have money for one tool and one tool only, I would invest in a CRM first.
Okay, so let’s talk about the different phases, right? So we have Series A; we have B; we have C; we have D; we got these public companies. So if you’re sitting at an A-level company in a series, so we’re going to start with Salesforce in your mind. What’s next?
Something like a, like a LinkedIn Navigator or a prospecting tool. And you gotta, you gotta give, give the team the ability to go find the people to contact, so you can start capturing that data in Salesforce.
So when you’re thinking about this, are you talking about this from like a sales operations perspective, or from like a revenue operations where marketing is included?
I’m thinking about more from a sales operations; you know, a lot of times, especially in the early stages, marketing might not have the tooling yet to run a true campaign. And so you know, by buying a marketing automation tool, you might be jumping the gun a little bit before marketing is ready.
You know, I come from, I actually tell this story on some of these other sessions, but Outreach sort of inch infamously from one to 10 million, did not have a marketing team. And so it was just going on to Sales Navigator, using like, I think it was Discover Org at the time, which is now a Zoominfo, grabbing a list, and just like, let’s load it up and go. But, you know, there’s a lot of folks that fight that idea, especially in the age of like, product-led growth, right, we’re like, you’re the product, we’re gonna do a freemium model, and then it’s gonna grow into something. But in your mind, if you’re building out a sales ops function, you know, all the way back at Series A, you gotta have your CRM and LinkedIn Sales Navigator, still the first thing?
I think so yeah, cuz even with that product-led growth, you know, yes, you’ll see users at a company, but are they the right users? Right? If you’re selling, and your target persona is a CMO? Is the CMO going to be the user that is going to get triggered by your PLG motion? Or is that person’s company going to get triggered? And then now you need to go find the right person to sell to and using the PLG story to sell to them.
So how do you capture that I’m assuming in your CRM, but like, to your point, right out of the get-go, even in those product-led growth scenarios, how do you catch that specifically to say “no, like, this isn’t the right target person” and then we got to surface it up to the rep that they need to go chase down somebody else?
Yeah, I think it depends on under, on your company, and your, your business model, right, if you’re selling, you know, at at Canva, we sold, what was a consumer-based product to the enterprise. And so a lot of times our users were designers or marketers, but they’re not the ultimate decision-maker, you know, they’re not the ones that are going to see the benefit of a, of a full enterprise license. And so, yes, you might be able to use that person to work your way up to the CMO or the, you know, Chief Revenue Officer, you’re going after that sales side of it. But you know, the, you know, the brand design person is not going to be your, your buyer.
So, let’s go, let’s go to Series B. All right, so in Series A, we’re Salesforce and LinkedIn Nav; you’re running a clean ship. The CFOs of the world are happy with you; you’re gonna have five job offers by the end of this thing. They’re got a sales ops guy that just says two tools are enough. So when you get when you get to Series B, you know, how’s that world start to expand?
Yeah, so I think that’s when you start to get, you know, a marketing automation platform. So you can have consistent message; you can start to cohort your audience, have a customer journey, and a lifecycle that matches where they are in their buying process. And along with that, you need an engagement tool, so that the sales reps are consistently saying the right message at the right time. And you know, their their sequences matches up with the marketing sequences. And so that there is a unified presence across both sales and marketing going to the market.
So we have data; we now have, you’re basically at Series B, which, you know, the nature of Series B is the business model works, but let’s scale it, right, like, so that makes sense that you’re saying let’s get marketing automation up and running. Let’s get the SEPs because we’ve got our, our messaging nailed. But now we need to do it en masse. I just, yeah, I was scrolling through LinkedIn the other day and ran into a guy that said, “Hey, I don’t, I don’t care what you say; you don’t have product market fit. You haven’t figured that out until you’ve passed 10 million.” So and right around 10 million, right, is when folks are starting to get into that B phase of things. So makes a ton of sense to me. But let’s play devil’s advocate for a second: I came from Outreach. Alright, so listen, I still have a ton of bias in this regard. Let’s just be clear. But a lot of folks, at least at the time that I was talking to, were saying, “Let’s bypass the CRM right out of the gate.” Now this isn’t how Outreach did it, but it was a lot of startups were saying, “Let’s bypass CRM, and let’s go right into the action. Because we don’t really need to capture a ton of data right now. We need to just get to that x number of million mark, and then by that time, we’ll have data, and we can do analysis later.” Like, is that, is that wrong? Or are you like…?
Not not so much. I think it depends on your point of view, right? So I’ve, I’ve been at places where they didn’t have the data. And as they’re trying to scale, it’s hard to plan and go forward if you don’t have the data on what works. And so, by capturing that data as early as possible, you know, I’m all for action, right? I love action. But action without analysis is just chaos. And so if, if you can kind of say, “Okay, this works; this doesn’t work,” that’s awesome. If you have a system of record that allows you to do that, you know, if you’re just, if you’re just doing sequences, and you can say, “Okay, this sequence works, this sequence doesn’t work.” And that works for your company at the time, that’s great. But as you then go to scale, and you’re starting from scratch with a CRM, trying to measure what good looks like becomes very difficult.
So on that same notion, I’m beating on you a little bit here, I had a conversation with a guy’s name’s David; he’s based in Berlin; he works at a venture startup over there. And we got into this a little bit on one of our earlier episodes, but the whole notion of CRM, I’ll put my cards on the table up front, is I think some folks are starting to think about the whole, what do I want to say, like, the integrator motion, like you’ve heard of Syncari and the Workato, is right. So instead of going out and getting CRM right out of the gate, let’s get an integrator, let’s set up a data lake. And then we can buy whatever tools we want in between. And we’ll have this integrator push it all around; we have a data lake, get a BI solution, and then we’re a lot more nimble and flexible than a Salesforce. So I think like, there’s some people that are starting to, for the first time ever push against the CRM motion, because they say, well, it’s rigid and inflexible. And if we get an integrator that, you know, they need to be a little more mature than they’re at right now, but they’re getting close. Like, there’s a way to circumvent the CRM motion. What do you think?
That’s, that’s definitely interesting. I think it’s kind of a neat, neat idea. I’d love to see it in play. I think as I try to think about the operational aspects of sales ops, right, you have, you know, what’s your speed to lead? How quickly can you get a lead from, from marketing form to the to a person to, to a response? You know, are they able to do that without kind of that central repository of Salesforce by using an integrator? And if they are, that’s awesome. That’s definitely a cost-savings that they can go invest.
Yeah, I think that’s like, that’s, I think it’s some things people are starting to play with. But I don’t think we’re going to see it on any real scale. Until the end of this decade anyway. But that’s fine. That’s kind of my like, you know, if I could put a horse in the race, like, that’s something I think about a lot. But anyway, just an interesting concept. But you’re you’re hanging, you’re hanging tight to your CRM while they make it.
Yeah, those people are much smarter than me, so they have the ability to think outside the box a little bit more than I did.
But to your point on that, though, like you just said about thinking outside of the box. I sound like I’m a little bit bipolar on this. But in one way, if you have something that works, you know, what are you doing, trying to innovate with it? Right. So like, if you, if it worked three other times, it will probably work the fourth time. So now I don’t, I don’t think you’re you’re wrong. It’s just something I’m interested in, you know, I’ve been thinking about, but I mean, we go from A to B; we make our way to C.
Yeah, sorry, I just, because I mean, I know a lot of places have, you know, Salesforce and then they also have a Workato and a data lake. So if they’re able to kind of save that big spend of Salesforce, make themselves much more efficient that way, and then kind of go, go think through other, other ways to use that money.
So I will go sideways down this rabbit trail, because I’m really interested in it now. The reason why I think people are stuck to Salesforce is because the interface; now the interface sucks; it’s not like fantastic and beautiful and, you know, elegantly designed or anything. You know, I remember when lightning came out, everyone was freaking out because it, you know, the skin changed for the first time since the beginning. But there is a reality where you have a user interface that, like, folks can jump into in one central place. And so like that’s kind of the, if there’s a major shot against this whole notion, it’s that these integrators don’t have like a central UI for a user to log into and check out, but I think the big hindrance is folks have used to kind of, to your point, Salesforce for so long, like, how do we, how can we remove this from our whole system? But it’s, you know, it’s a lot harder to change something that massive if you’re already in flight. Like, I don’t know if this is true, but I heard once that, you know, Boeing is still running on DOS, right? Like CD/, whatever, it’s, it could be a lie. I don’t know. But the point is, you’re so massive, and everything’s in your systems, it’s tough to change. But for folks that are just starting, I think it’s an interesting concept to say, why don’t you start from here, and let’s just see what happens. But, you know, you get your funding money. And so you don’t want to blow it, but at the same time, like, if you’re gonna blow anything, now’s the time to do it, right?
Yeah, yes. Yeah. I mean, you know, my goal as a RevOps leader is to make the reps’ lives as easy as possible. And so it’d be interesting to get their feedback on using this integrator and having them have to go into different systems to perform different tasks versus, you know, with Salesforce, and they’re kind of Visualforce pages and all the stuff that you can do within Salesforce, you know, they just go to Salesforce, and they can perform, you know, 90% of their day. And, you know, if they’re prospecting, they go to Outreach, and, you know, they focused on that tool. But we, you know, I tried to limit the number of tools that they touch and let a lot of the tools work in the background or kind of within that Salesforce framework.
Well, that’s the, there’s two philosophies that I’ve run into around this, you have the companies that are trying to push the notion of platform. Like, we’re not a tool; we’re a platform; we’re a platform; we’re a platform. Why are they doing this? Because they want the users to live in that platform. Because it feels like that’s just like, that’s where my life happens. And then there’s the other side of the coin, where folks are saying, “I’m totally comfortable being a tool; you don’t even need to know what it looks like, as long as it makes it on Salesforce’s AppExchange. I’m happy it’s being used. We’re making money. This is good.” But like, think about, think about the SDR motion. Okay, this is one sliver; where’s the SDR live, like their entire day? Are they in Salesforce all day?
No, they’re usually in Outreach.
They’re in Outreach or a SalesLoft, or sales engagement platform. So for one function, so your whole SDR function: do they need to be in Salesforce? No, like there’s entire companies we’ve worked with that they’ve said, “If my comp… if my team even sees a Salesforce page, on the SDR side, we, we’ve failed them,” because to your point, I don’t want them in 10 different tools; just get them in that one, and they’re good, right? Think about the AE, where’s the AE live?
Well, depending on where you are, as a company, they’re either in Salesforce to create an opportunity, and then they’re in a forecasting management tool to manage the opportunity. Or they’re in Salesforce all day, every day.
Right. But they’re like, so they’re in their inbox first, then to your… inbox is where they live, but then they go to, they go to Salesforce to fill out opportunity data that we need for some other platform to do analysis on. So like, if these other platforms just do better at like managing opportunities, why does the AE even need to go into Salesforce?
Yeah, I mean, if you could have a tool that sits outside Salesforce that can manage opportunities, I think where, where I’ve struggled in the past, is kind of the products right, when you get down to a product-level tools support that. And that’s where we come in.
Tell me what you mean by that.
Like on an opportunity, the opportunity product in Salesforce. So I have not yet seen a tool that will allow us to add products, you know, being a standalone, you know, standalone item.
So, but at the end of the day, the, the AE they might live inside of there, but it’s, is Salesforce, really, for the AE to like manage things and enjoy, or do they feel it because sales ops is asking them to?
I think they feel it because that’s where they have to go to create an opportunity and opportunity. And then, you know, my goal in life is to actually make the reps’ lives easy as possible. And so I work towards reducing the amount of inputs that a rep has to put in on their opportunities. And so you know, I’ve used things in the past like a People.ai to capture activity data from the mail, from an inbox, from a calendar. Yeah, know, we used to Drift. We know, we tried to add Drift data to an opportunity. So we can kind of get a full picture of, of how that opportunity came to fruition without having the rep having to go and lock their own meetings and calls and make their lives easy.
So think about the sophistication, the options, like everything that happens in the face of Salesforce, and the AE only uses it to go and create an opportunity and update some fields. Right? So, again, I’m not saying this is something that I think’s going to happen tomorrow. But when I like when I start looking, you know, I look at my, my ball here and I look into the future, right? I think like, I don’t, I don’t think Salesforce is on as steady ground as they used to be in the face of all these integrators and these pushes of some of these different platforms. Like, initially, Salesforce was supposed to be where you do your tasks, right, you send an email, you log your email, you assign a task for a call, and reminder, whatever. That’s not actionable at all for anybody anymore. Like, nobody’s going to use it anymore for that purpose. So in a sales rep’s perspective, the only thing it’s there for is data and reporting, which is what, what like my sales ops team wants to do: they can analyze trends, which they need to analyze trends to get to check things out. But at the end of the day, like, is there a better place for them to live? Yeah, all right, because it let’ss all these things happen on the background. Like, if that’s possible, then then Salesforce isn’t needed and the integrators and the data lakes are enough.
I think that’s yeah, and you know, at the end of the day, you’re, you’re reporting your Salesforce data into another tool to do the analysis anyway, because it’s not that good at the analysis and reporting.
Oh, this is, this is the voice that like, drives me nuts, right. Like, everybody starts with Salesforce, man. Listen, I know; I feel like I may be like, I’m making a convert over here. And like, be careful, right? Like, we’re not trying to proselytize you, you know. But the, the point is, like, why did they have to go out and buy Tableau, right? Because they needed to do better with their analysis and reporting and all this stuff. So Salesforce, so it’s supposed to be I’ve always heard it’s your data warehouse. Well, it’s pretty expensive and bloated data warehouse when you can…
Yeah, at both Acquia and at Canva, we ported our Salesforce data into a data warehouse. Because Salesforce doesn’t have, you know, multiple log items for for objects, right? There’s, there’s very limited object history within Salesforce. And so you have to put it into a snowflake repository to kind of capture each change in a line item.
And so when you build reporting in Salesforce, we’ll talk from a, listen, I come from sales engagement, right? That’s my lens. And you think about that in terms of, like, even sequence reporting, right, how many emails were sent whatever? Well, it pushes things back on leads; it pushes things back on contacts. So now anytime I want to do activity reporting, okay, I have to have the same exact report, for lead and for contacts, and I gotta go look into places. But then if I have a BI tool, I can start at the overall layer and just see those two different objects, what’s going, and then I can filter down if I want to, right, but so my point in saying this is even like some of the most basic functions of Salesforce, it’s built off an assumption of a certain way that leads should work, a certain way that contacts should work. There’s a reason why there’s a lead status and not a contact status, like, the whole system is built on a very specific type of sales process, even though they say Salesforce is scalable and changeable and all these things. The reality is, it’s actually pretty rigid. So like, there’s a world here…
Assuming you never sell to your contacts again, because you know, I want to measure if marketing can bring in the same person again, and have them come through our sales funnel. And yeah, and we continue to sell to them. You know, that’s a win for everybody, right? That’s a cheaper, that’s a cheaper sale, because it’s someone who’s already a customer. But once they’re a customer, they’re no longer a lead. So you kind of lose that whole funnel analysis. It, it’s frustrating.
And that’s why you have people doing crazy things like the moment you’re going to reach out to somebody, you need to create an opportunity, so that we get all this reporting on the opportunity. And like, you start, like, you know, just hacking the system together, trying to find what you want, which is why, hey, look, I don’t have any system integrators that are sponsoring this podcast; I’m not getting paid for saying any of this. Matter of fact, I’m not sure any of them even know my name, right. But I’m, I’m just saying, like, you get an integrator in there that can get things to talk in a sophisticated way, you get a data lake and a BI solution. And, and the Achilles heel, and this is to your point is, where’s the user interface for some of the functions that people have to do. I’m with you, like I agree, we can’t have them login into the system integrator and like, this is gonna be interesting. But at the end of the day, you suddenly can build a like a sales operations infrastructure that just looks incredibly different, right, that can talk to each other, data can flow a lot easier and smoother and then even in the different tools and a lot, lot better, like, you talk about objects, objects can talk a little bit better. What do you think here? Am I? Am I like, am I destroying the paradigm?
Like if someone came up with it and showed it to me, I would be, I would be on board. I think, you know, Salesforce, I think everybody has like a love-hate relationship, right? It’s, you know, it’s there, you know, it works, you know how to use it. You know, all the tools talk to it. So it’s a very easy integration platform. But there are some major major frustrations that people have with it. And so if someone came up, someone comes up and kind of gives us all the functionality, but also makes kind of this whole, lead to contact mess easier and cleaner. You know, just treat people like people and you’re, you’re a person, and you came through our system. And this is how you look. And this is your history as a person as opposed to your history as a lead versus your history as a contact. It would make it, make everybody’s lives a little bit easier, I think.
It’s funny how important even the namings of things are; like, I know there’s a lot of functional things between the difference of a lead in a contact, lead status and all this but you know, I’ll draw from experience here, training a bunch of CSMs on Outreach, and Outreach to the people, the individuals in there whether a leader a contact, they’re called a prospect, by default; they’re a prospect. So the object lead syncs to prospect; contact syncs to prospect, but when you go and train CSMs, and you say, “Okay, here’s your list of customers,” like the first thing they say every single time is, “why does this say prospect? I don’t work with prospects; these are specific customers.” Like well, like, like they are customers; Outreach just calls them prospects, and they’re, like, does not compute, does not compute. And so like even the naming, to your point in Salesforce of like, lead and contact, okay, well, anymore with Account-Based Sales, Account Based Marketing, and all that, what’s the difference between a lead and a contact to begin with?
Yeah, I mean, in today’s world, and my history in this, in this realm, there’s been very, very little difference between the lead and a contact, especially as you start to go into Account Based Marketing, you start doing customer marketing, and you really try to go to that expansion motion. And so I think, you know, you said, people are hacking the system, right, they’re creating an opportunity, it’s usually one factor, somebody’s people are hacking the system on context. And they’re, you know, they’re building out kind of a unique context as to match lead status, so that you can track a contact in the same way. And then you have, you know, a customer lifecycle, which is another value that you know, kind of mirrors kind of like the status, but it’s different than the status. And kind of when you start to explain that to C-levels, they don’t get it; they don’t want to get it, and it’s very difficult to talk about.
Yeah, they’re like “just figure it out, like, I don’t care; I don’t care how you do it, just figure it out.” But that’s the, like, I talked to people like that whole lead status thing all the time; it, it trips people up, because in some companies lead status is like are you reaching out to them? Right, like, I’m attempting to contact; I’ve responded, I’ve, you know, they’re interested. And some companies lead statuses, MQL, SAL, you know, SQL, right. So there’s, like, conceptually a difference between what I’m going to call lifecycle status, and like, engagement status, right? Like, lifecycle is MQL, SAL, whatever, like where they’re at, in their buyer’s journey. But then the, the, what did I even just call it the engagement status is like, they’re an MQL, but went dark, right they’re MQL and attempting to contact them, right, like, but but the system like, why is lead status and object but like, it could be a field, it could be anyway, it just gets…
It’s, it makes life a lot easier. I remember having a conversation with three C-levels and trying to talk about and marketing qualified lead, and a marketing qualified contact, and how contacts didn’t have the same flow, you know, funnel as a lead. And they wanted nothing to do with that conversation. They just wanted to look at the funnel, and you have to kind of explain to them, it’s very difficult to look at the funnel in a unified view when these things don’t work the same way in Salesforce, even though just because a lead was converted to a contact, they now forever made a contact whether they’ve purchased from you or not. It’s you know, it’s it’s fun; it makes the job, a lot of fun.
So, Mark, we only made it to Series B; we’re at time. And we, we, I basically said “I’m not sure if I believe you.” You know, which I say that in jest like, folks are going to sign up Salesforce, and it’s going to do a fantastic job and you’re going to design great programs. But I have to ask the question for one last question before we, before we hop on. So if we go back to the beginning now that we had this conversation, right, if you’re a Series A company, what’s the tool that you have to buy?
So I would still go back to a CRM; I don’t know that Series A, you’re gonna have the people or the funds to go build this integrated integrators, you know, view of the world.
I think that’s, that’s a great point. I was talking to another guy about, like, there’s so much flexibility in the tools now. But you have to, you have to have somebody to maintain them. So sometimes the best thing to do is just buy what’s been like, that does the most things right out of the box, so that you’re already starting, you know, 10 steps ahead, as opposed to trying to build a custom solution, especially when you don’t even know what needs to be built yet.
No, you know, if you take something, and you can kind of say, “Okay, this is the, you know, the the standard process that works in, you know, 75% of the companies, does it work for us? Let’s try it for six months. If it works, great. If it doesn’t work, you know, we can tweak it, as opposed to trying to build out this amazing, you know, integrators thing,” and you don’t even know how you’re, how you’re gonna sell. You don’t know what your methodology is.
Hey, Mark, I just want to say Thanks for, thanks for hopping in with me today. And I, hey, everybody, listen, I know, we went totally sideways on where we started. But I hope you enjoyed this. If you learned something today, and we’re able to engage at least in your own minds in the debate in where some of these tools fit for you. So, Mark, if anybody wants to reach out to you, what’s the, what’s the best way for them to connect with you?
LinkedIn is always good. Mark B. Turner on LinkedIn, and then firstname.lastname@example.org. I’m open to emails as well.
All right, man. Well, hey, I appreciate you coming on today.
Thanks. Thanks for having me. This was fun.
Hot dog. That was a great episode. Thanks for listening. If you want to learn more about Greaser Consulting or any information you heard on today’s episode, visit us online at www.greaserconsulting.com. Be sure to click the Follow button and the bell icon to be notified on the latest here at RevOps Therapy. Thanks and see you real soon.